Monday, June 05, 2006

More Ups and Downs - and a Request for Help (Take 2)

5 JUN 06

Editors Note: My apologies to anyone who came to my blog over the last two days. I had a post here (including a reply from Seattle John) and Blogger ate it. I'm attempting to re-post now. Wish me luck.

Had the best single night of my poker career playing 10/20 – quadrupled up. Big deal.

What I want to blog about today is a perplexing hand at 20/40. It has me curious on so many levels, that I really want some input.

Yes, Ryan. I’m talking about you.

In late position, I raise with Ad 10d. At this point, I had a pretty solid table image and only showed down winners or big hands. Ryan was a late comer to the game, and was playing his usual tight aggressive style. In fact, he only played about one hand for every three I was playing.

Ryan was in the blind and called. I’ve blogged about this before. If there is no one in the pot, calling a raise from the big blind is almost a no brainer. You are getting 4.5 to 1.

Ryan and I are heads up. The flop comes down with something like J 8 2 with 2 diamonds. Good draw for me. Ryan checks, so I lead out. Ryan smooth calls. Right away I’m nervous, but okay. Let’s see the turn.

The turn is a non-diamond but puts a second club on the board. Ryan bets right out, and I raise. Here is where I need some help. Ryan re-raises!

Okay. I know I’m beat right now, but I have the draw to the nut flush, so I call. The river misses me. I check with a plan on folding to a bet, but Ryan also checks and flips over 2c 3c for a pair of 2s and a nice pot.

Time for some critical review.

Ryan played the hell out of this hand. He wins on so many levels:
- Maybe he read one of my screaming tells that I was still drawing.
- He knows I’m capable of folding, so maybe he thought he’d win the pot right there with the re-raise.
- If you re-read the statement above (I know I’m beat right now), you see I was playing level 1 poker – what’s in my hand? Who cares what he’s holding?
- My calling the re-raise should have made him extremely nervous. Why didn’t I pick up on that? Surely he would have folded if I bet the river.

Or would he? At this point, it’s almost worth an extra $40 to show the table that you are willing to be aggressive with the second worst hand in poker (don’t let anyone tell you 7 2 off-suit is the worst hand. It is, but only pre-flop. At the river, 2 3 is the worst).

Anyway, kudos to Ryan for a great play. I finished the night down only a little thanks to a real donkey play with 8 3 of diamonds – otherwise I would have been down a lot more. Only two or three more big wins, and I’m taking a shot at the 50/100 game, so watch out Seattle John!


Seattlejohn said...

First off, I would never consider you one of my bad player friends. I have not played with you enough to know if you are a bad player. Second, your hand analysis does not make sense. How can you raise in late position and be first to act in the hand? Were you in the SB?

If you were in late position and he was the BB and you raised he was only getting 2.5 to one to call. Assuming the SB dumped. The call with the 2,3 of clubs is a very neg. EV call. I would dump it every time with almost no exceptions. Once he did decide to call, then his play was not bad. He floped a pair heads up, check called the flop, made a pair with a draw on the turn, and I assume he bet out here, you raised and he three bet out of position to get a free card on the river, or disguise his hand. This is a very effective play, and it worked against you. You gave him a free look at the river with bottom pair.

The only mistake was calling with 2,3 out of the blind. Other than that is was played well. See you tonight..SJ

Doog said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DrChako said...

First off, sorry to anyone who might have attempted to comment to this post. Blogger says that comment #2 was deleted - it sure wasn't deleted by me.

Secondly - JD, I re-edited the post. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

Finally, I disagree with you about the pot odds from the BB, but we may be talking about the difference between true odds and implied odds.

My calculation:
SB + BB = 1.5.
My raise = 2
Calling the raise from the BB = 1 additional bet (you can't count the posting of the BB against yourself).
And finally, the raiser will ALWAYS bet the flop for one additional bet - hence 4.5:1.


cc said...

I don't think Ryan can check the flop then you check the turn (physically impossible). I'm guessing that he's in the bb therefore bets the turn, you raise it, and he three-bets it. I would agree that he's got you on either a draw or overcards. Could you bet the river and get a laydown? Again, not sure what the turn and river cards were but I would guess doubtful, maybe not. I know I couldn't bet after he checked the river (but you again say that you checked to him, so I think you've gotten your wires crossed here). I can't read anyone, so I would have called the turn three-bet then given up the hand for sure unless I had some bigtime tell. Since I can't read anyone, I'm assuming I would check down if he checked the river.

Having said all that, I have seen better players playing with better players do what you described. If you're among a bunch of them, then you have to be prepared to either have great hands or weather the pressure.

DrChako said...

Moron update #2...

Thanks cc - I made the (hopefully) final correction. Ryan bet right out after the flop and I raised him. There was no checking involved.

I think my brain is still addled from all the drugs I did in the 60's...

Ryan Kirk said...

Alright, this is Ryan and I'm going to set this story straight. I said at the table tonight I wouldn't share my secrets, but here is my take on the hand.

First off, the game was shorthanded (five players at the time) and it was folded around to you in the SB while I was in the BB. You raised from the SB with what turned out to be the AdTd and I called with the 3c2c. I make this call for many reasons. First, it is shorthanded and I'm sending the message to you that I will call with a very WIDE variety of hands from the BB when you raise. I'm not going to let you push me around. Second, I have position on you. Considering this, it really doesn't matter what two cards I have as long as I'm playing your two cards correctly. Hopefully that makes sense? Lastly, I hate to mention this, but you have several physical tells which I have learned over time that gave me a hint to the marginal, yet not overpowering, strength of your hand.

The flop came down 9d-2d-7h, giving me bottom pair and you the nut flush draw with two overs. You bet right out and I raise. You three-bet and I cap. I cap because I know without a shadow of a doubt that my pair is the only pair in either of our hands at this point. I also want you checking to me on the turn so that if I want I can take a free card. Of course, I have no idea you have a flush draw and two overs (making you the technical favorite, although not the best hand), but I knew at that point that my hand was good. On the turn, an offsuit 6 fell (it did not give me a flush draw) and you hesitated and Hollywooded a little bit, telling me once again that you had something to think about, but again, not anything you'd like to bet and get raised with. Thus, you check. Of course, seeing this type of weakness I'm betting again. It's not often you get the chance to "value" bet with bottom pair, worst kicker. However, I still feel it was a great bet considering you are still drawing at my pair and I don't want you to draw for free. On the river, you checked your ace-high when the board pairs the 7 and I check behind knowing that my pair is going to beat any busted draw or ace-high and if I bet you probably won't call unless you have me beat.

So there you have it. Now that it's posted right, I'll be interested to hear what everyone has to say.

BTW, glad to hear you did so well at $10/$20. Everytime I see you over there (or in the game with me) you seem to be beating them up pretty good. Keep it up!

DrChako said...

Thanks for the clarification - I really thought I was in late position or on the button, but I'm sure you are right.

As I suspected, it was one of my screaming tells that gave it away. I'm pretty sure I know which tell you picked up (i'll tell you the next time we talk. There are too many other Muckleshoot players that read this blog).

How much would I have to pay you to critique my game prior to my WSOP trip?


skitch said...

Hey Doc, looks like you've started a new blog-play-a-long game, "How Did Doc's Hand REALLY Play Out?"

Was he on the button or in the big blind? Did he check-raise or bet-call? Did he miss his flush draw or was it a straight draw?


P.S., PJ's has started a No-Limit "cash" game on Saturday and Sunday nights if you're interested. I put "cash" in quotes cause they had to write it up like a Tournament to get it by the gaming board, it's basically a $100 buy-in tournament where T1=$1 with rounds that stay steady at 1/2.