Saturday, April 21, 2007


21 APR 07

I had another legendary night at the ‘shoot. I bought in for $100 at 4/8, moved quickly to 3/5 No Limit and finished at 20/40. My $100? Turned it into over $1400.

I so totally rock.

Rather than tell you how awesome I am, I want to discuss a rules question. I won the hand, so the outcome isn’t important.

I’m playing 3/5 No Limit. On the button I call a minimum raise with KQ and 7 of us (!) see a flop of Q 8 4 rainbow. It checks to the cutoff, who bets $15. I announce raise, grab a stack of chips and place 60 more over the line. What I have left in my hand comes back to my small stack. I am not certain how much I have left in my hand.

Crazy Asian Dude in the 5 seat, who has a hand, says, “That extra money plays.” He’s referring to the extra chips in my hand. He is correct. The problem is, I don’t remember how much it was. He tells the dealer it was about $40. The dealer tells me to put $40 extra out there. I refuse, saying that it shouldn’t be up to CAD, especially when he is just guessing. I agreed to abide by whatever the floor walker said.

What did Karen (the floor) tell me to do? Ryan, I’d really like to hear from you on this one, but anyone feel free to chime in.

As an aside, after all the bickering, CAD folded. It put the whole table on tilt, and I profited handsomely over the next hour.


Drizztdj said...

I always thought it was more like Chess, if you don't take your hands completely off the playing piece (or chips) the play hasn't occurred entirely.

Since you didn't announce the amount of the raise, those chips you didn't cut shouldn't play.

Seattlejohn said...

As much as you play at the Muck I am surprised you did not know that rule. You had to have some idea of how much you had in your hand? If $40 was off was it $30? If I were the floor I would have asked you how much it was and asked you to put it in the pot. I assume the ruling was you had to put something in the pot.

I do agree it is a stupid rule however. You should just know it when playing NL. SJ

Ryan said...

Once again, your desire for truthfulness and honesty came and bit you in the butt. That'll teach you for not sticking up for yourself and for (gasp) telling the truth in a poker room.

I suppose that instead of saying you didn't know how much you had in your hand, you could have made an estimate and at least given the floorperson another amount to mull over. In this case, she ruled $40 because it was the only number anyone was saying (even if it was the Crazy Asian Dude). I don't think she made a bad ruling per se, just the only ruling she could make in light of the information given to her.

I must say, it was much nicer playing $2-$5 NL at the Wynn this last week. No stupid "commitment" line to enforce and the players never once took advantage of it.

WSOP Floor Supe said...

So if I am reading this right:

The rule at the Shoot (it's been a long time since I played there) is when you say "raise" and bring out a handful of chips, ALL the chips have to play?????

If this is true, THAT IS A TERRIBLE RULE.

In every tournament I've ever worked when a player states "raise" but not an excact amount, the chips that hit the felt is the raise.

IE: I say "raise" and bring out as many chips as my grubby little hands will hold and cut out $75 and still holding $30 that I return to my stack, then $75 is the raise. If I say "raise $75" I can bring out as many chips, or go back to my stack as many times as I want.

If that is the rule, I will say she made you put $20 in the pot since it is 1/2 of what CAD said and you really had no idea. That is what I would have done if I was forced to enforce that stupid rule.

After all the floor persons job is to make decisions based on what "is in the best interest of the game". Even with the TDA rules at the WSOP we had a bit of laditude.

DrChako said...

Thanks everyone. I totally agree with Karen's ruling - I had to put in $40 more. Since there was only one opinion, it's all the information she had. If I had suggested a different amount, she might have compromised. To be honest, my bet was so big anyway that I was pot committed. It actually helped me to put more into the pot, because I really didn't want to see a turn.

It's a stupid rule that is not uniformly enforced, but I knew the rule and had even violated it in the past. You are always safe by announcing the EXACT amount of the raise. You can even say, "RAISE," put out the amount of the initial bet, and then go back for more.

Maigrey said...

The difference is, you have a committement line - that is what makes it such that all the chips that go over the line are part of your bet.

No commitment line, different story.